did you just say....
well- it's out there...the tossing and turning for all to endure has begun...for some, considering whether jesus actually sinned- while human- is difficult...for some, considering that some have never considered this is even more difficult...for some, considering that others have resolved it to be true is down right- i think the word was 'blasphemous'...
so what? either way? what are the implications for both sides? i truly would love to hear the systematic argument in a forum that was safe...by safe, i mean that hostilities and judgment are checked in at the door so that these considerations were given equal air time- without a shouting match, or a task force to eliminate free thought...
jesus is a tough nut to crack...with no personal writings, no memoirs, no autobiographies- we only have the words of those who claimed to be his followers...even at that, they were competing to write "their" witness of him...hmmmm...it gets scary- real fast...
i like the struggle...i like the tacking back and forth of the argument...i especially like it that the only thing i do not fear about this saga is the questioning...how do you come to your core belief system without asking?
posted by Monica @ 7:22 PM
23 comments
23 Comments:
Did Jesus sin? Depends on how one defines sin.
If sin is about broken relationship between God and humanity, then Jesus could not have sinned. As a person of the Trinity, Jesus was, and is, God. Jesus cannot sin against God, because he is God. We also cannot claim that God can sin against humanity, because that is contrary to the nature of God.
Now if we define sin as anything that causes a broken relationship between human persons, then it appears that a case can be made that Jesus sinned. After all, the actions of Jesus stirred up plenty of contention and strife. However, once again, by confessing that Jesus is God, we are left with the problem of saying that God can sin.
So is it a big deal to claim that God can sin?
Doing so, we have to somehow get past the scriptural evidence stating otherwise. Perhaps the easiest way to do so is just to deny the divinity of Christ, or perhaps to define it in such a way as to allow for sinfulness in the Incarnation. But even theologians such as Tillich and Schleiermacher, who are more than willing to redefine what divinity means, are unwilling to compromise on Christ being sinful. Interestingly, for them, the non-sinfulness of Christ is, in large part, what it means for him to be divine in the first place. And that is the liberal view of divinty!
At this point, I really don't see much way to reconcile the divinity of Christ with Jesus having sinned, without seriously redefining what we normally mean when we talk about sin. And a redefinition of sin that would include Jesus as a sinner, necessarily reduces sin from a moral compass to a relational descriptor. For example, if Hitler wants Barth to help him out with the holocaust and Barth refuses, then Barth has committed sin against Hitler. By this definition, I suppose we could say that Jesus sinned (Thank God!)
very nice...now this is what i am talking about...
No one f@!#s with my Jesus!
:-)
if i may (deposit 2 cents)
i am of the mind as of now, to think that to truely have Christ be human, sin is part of that experience, so i am torn, i want my Christ to be sinfree(after all he is the son of God)thought on the other hand, i like the idea of relating to a Christ on earth that has similar desires as myself, to me right now, this is more relatable. just a thought.
Everybody Poops!
seriously, anonymous, it's okay to let us know who you are...it's safe to say that jesus pooped here..
Not every poop is a sin; not every sin is a poop.
Ask what? Jesus is the Christ. No questions asked.
God loves you and offers a wonderful plan for your life.
Man is sinful and separated from God, thus he cannot know and experience God's love and plan for his life.
Jesus Christ is God's only provision for man's sin. Through Him you can know and experience God's love and plan for your life.
We must individually receive Jesus as Savior and lord. Then we can know and experience God's love and plan for our lives.
What else is there to ask?
Does that Bible hurt your hand when you thump folks with it?
anon...i am not sure if you actually read the blog, but this isn't about OUR sin...we are highly aware of what state we are in...this isn't about the gospel of jesus THE christ...it is a forum for discussing if jesus sinned or not...from your comment, i sense that you think i am not aware of the gospel...this is the task force against free thought i was hoping to avoid...
on another note, some old friends of mine gave me the book everybody poops...i highly recommend it to anyone that does not possess it...
Jesus is all about saving us from our sin. How can you say that the gospel is about anything other than that.
"this is the task force against free thought i was hoping to avoid..." How can one person be a task force?
"Does that Bible hurt your hand when you thump folks with it?" Why is it that the liberals always attack the person making a point, instead of addressing their well thought out argument? How do you know that I am not a double amputee and that I just 'typed' this response out by blowing into a straw? Typicall liberal hypocracy.
anon...i don't know anything about you becuase you have an anon moniker...you got to give me something here...
the only one attacking here is you in your anonimity...you have now not only missed the point of the conversation, but you have now labeled me as a typical liberal and a hypocrite as well...my friend, if we were in the same room i imagine you to be shouting at me that jesus saved us from our sins...i do really know that...jesus really has saved my liberal, hypocrital self...
and just for kicks, your well thought out argument was not in the realm of the clearly defined forum...it's about jesus sinning...not us...
Yes, Jesus is the Christ, the messiah, the annointed...but not what we expected. In fact, Jesus refuses to play into our expectations.
When you say "Man" and "he" and "his" ...I say "poop" because it shows that you are not sensitive to those of us who are penis free. If you were a double amputee, I think you would be much more sensitive to those of us who are a little different. Your argument is not well thought out--you seem to be using pre-polarized words... it is definately not free thought. Break the mold a little-- express your thoughts using a little creativity-- your church won't find out. How can you say what you want to say without being so dogmatic that it hurts the "ears" of your audiance. (A Bible thump is like beating a child for doing something they don't know is wrong. You may be thumping the wrong group.)
Ask what? I think the question is "Did Jesus sin? ...Did he break the law? ...Did he heal on the Sabbath? Did he blaspheme? Hell yeah he did! He is my favorite rabble rouser. If we could do the same, the world would be a better place for it. Having a piss poor relationship with God is worse than sinning. God forgives sins, and does not forgive pooping on the relationship.
So is "Jesus all about saving us from our sin"? I think Jesus is all about saving others from our sin. (repeat this mantra 100 times: IT ISN'T ABOUT ME)
Christ's message is that God is doing and saying what Jesus is doing and saying--as Christians, we are little Christs--proclaiming that message.
What makes one a liberal or a conservative or a fundamentalist? Someone else's words? And, what does your physical state have to do with the ideas you are trying to express? If you are starving in some third world country, it may have an impact on the slack we cut you. If you are just spouting pre-packaged thoughts...and you don't have some serious brain dammage going on...you might want to reconsider your "argument" in light of the question at hand.
thanks to our second anon...great argument...
no more anonymous monikers...anonymous responses are being abolished at this moment...you are now required to use the crappy word verification system...that's the hardest part of posting, in my opinion...
poop
I can still post anonymously...you have got to help me. I can't stop.
I hope you were calling me liberal. Christ's message is not about me...I like this. I would love too talk with you about this some more. If we individualized Jesus than you lose focus on the all encompassing nature of salvation. We did nothing to harness or invoke salvation. My friend, we are invited to be involved in Christ. Works will never pay the price of Christ's sacrifice. The beauty of all of this is it takes all kinds of thoughts and understanding to make up the Body of Christ. I am thankful that you all are participating in this dialogue.
I rather enjoy the fact that you are all attacking my anonymity instead of addressing what I write. You all write as if you see life through a glass dimly.
The 'group think' that occurs in this forum is disturbing. Why is the one person who disagrees completely alienated? My anonymity is not the issue. Your close-mindedness is.
Believe in the power of your mind.
Nevertheless, I don't think real dialogue is possible without a little vulnerability. Everyone else here is making themselves vulnerable by giving their name and standing behind their thoughts. To be an anonymous contributer to such a dialogue is to refuse to be vulnerable, and thus, not to enter into the conversation on the same level as everyone else. Have whatever opinion you want. Think it over. Whatever. But don't a oh-so-pious anonymous person, criticize everyone else by hurling insults, and then refuse to participate in the conversation at the same level as everyone else. Grow up, people.
Anon (311, 1233, 1045, and sadly: 1130 & 1133) asks anon (104): Did you mean to allude to scripture when you wrote "through a glass dimly"?
1 Corinthians 13:11-12 "When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. For now we see in a glass, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully"
Sounds like you are trying to reference the eschaton to me. Does this mean that you are still trying to avoid the "Did Jesus sin?" question?
Also, could you point out where the group engaged in "group think"... because I had consumed more than my normal share of beer before contributing... and I want to make sure that the collective conversation was not limited by my "theology on tap."
I would welcome your thoughts on the question (stated again for clarity): Did Jesus sin?
I would also like to hear more on how this was discussed in class. What were Monya's examples? Did her statement fry some brains?
And finally, an apology...I apologize for posting anonymously. It began harmlessly enough. I believe that anonymity is not a bad thing in itself-- but I realize that it is probably not a good practice among friends. Ambiguity is not all bad either-- something you will surely learn in summer Greek. None the less, I will do my best to refrain from anonymous and ambiguous comments in the future.
-David
a hearty thanks to all who contributed...as in all dialogue, the defintion of the boundaries is needed...when we step outside of the given boundaries, we can raise all types of questions- i fear we need some practice in this...especially due to the fact that we will not always be online and guessing what the other is thinking...
i believe we owe ourselves and the world our convictions, whatever they may be...we owe each other respect and dignity no matter where the outcome lies...
when something as delicate and foundational as this topic becomes the discussion, is it okay to let our context be the ruling authority? or our own lens? i think the world is much bigger than ourselves and we would benefit from listening and truly thinking through these issues that lie at the heart of our faith...
some people don't need to question and seek...i do...i feel there is more to the answers, whatever they may be, than my own ideology...
are we the future of the church? if so, the dignity and passion we give to one another in this realm of discussing is vital...love to all, whether you think jesus was a sinner or not...
Facinating conversation. I'll weigh in with a "no" to the original question. Mine is rooted in the doctrine of the Trinity. If one accepts that Jesus and the Father are one, then this necessarily precludes sin.
I don't believe in sin.
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